What is sexual immorality?
The following was a reply to my post about Bradley Leshawn Fowler. I wanted to post the reply and see what I might catch. You can read the post here.
But one question that I have for homosexuals, which I need to update my philosophy on the whole thing, is this. IF sexual immorality in the bible does not include homosexuality, then what does being sexually immoral mean?
Sex before marriage? If so, homosexuals are committing that sin because only certain states acknowledge marriages of that nature.
Oral sex. I think homosexuality falls into that category too.
Bestiality? Who does that anyway. And if the line is NOT drawn somewhere on what is and is not moral, those advocates of bestiality will come next.
Sex with more than one partner? I believe that was throughout the whole bible plus those crazy wackos out in Utah still do that and they’re supposed to be Christians. I personally couldn’t do that to my wife.
Adultery? Ooh! That’s a good one? But is that the ONLY one?
Anyway, my point is what is sexual Immorality now that people want to concur that homosexuality is not immoral!
Tell me what do you think.
Saph said,
November 29, 2008 at 9:18 pm
Oh… well… I didn’t know you were the owner of the blog =) Most of my questions and ranting are sort of pointed towards readers and people in general, just FYI so you never take anything too personally.
But as to the answer for this question, I think above all things I hold the belief that I may be actually wrong. As a child believes and then realizes his mistakes when they grow up, and how stupidly wrong they were. We are even more stupid when compared to God.
I think no matter who you are, at least one of your beliefs will end up being wrong. It’s just human that we can’t be perfect. My beliefs are strongly grounded, please understand that I’m definitely not wishy-washy and don’t sway here or there, but I will not be surprised at all if It ends up that something was a mistake on my part.
Let me pose this question, and please don’t be like those people who say something like, “Well that would never be and that’s that” since the whole point is to think. What if you die, and up there in the afterlife God tells you, “Well actually stealing is ok, if you have the wits to steal it it’s on the person who was stupid enough to let it be stolen.”?
The first impulse is to again, say God would never say that. And then to question the statement.
But really in the end, God is the unmovable. He is the tree with uncountable branches. You can’t say for sure, “he will go to hell”, because the branches are so many, and too large for us to grasp. But in the end He’s firmly planted in “Holy Goodness”. It is we who move and go whichever way. If in the end he says what is what, then he is right no matter what you think. There is no point in trying to tell him that stealing is wrong. If he says it’s right it’s right. So if I die, I go up there, and God tells me, “There is nothing wrong with Homosexuals”. Then that’s that. And I would be fine with his decision.
There are people around that believe they hold so much of a Word that doesn’t belong to them that you can see them trying to argue with God. Well there they can’t try to ignore him, or dismiss him. So even here you have to try to reason, and think, don’t be the stone or tree, we must be the vines and the wind around that tree. We can’t try to say that it’s been said and that’s that. God’s Word is too big for us to ever truly grasp, so you can always learn more, study more, question more. So we can’t say, “It’s been established that it’s wrong for a long time”. It’s up to you to save your soul, you can’t use that excuse.
If you shut your eyes to everything and hold onto one thing, in the end all you’ll see is darkness.
If you die, and God tells you that you can rape, kill, steal. That he doesn’t care about anything or anyone. You know what, you can not worship him. And that’s faith. Believing that in the end God is goodness itself, just, and holy. You have to remember that whatever you believe in, He is the essence of what is good. So if he, in his much greater knowledge, says something is wrong then it will be wrong. God holds Truth, not us, we can only glimpse it.
So you know what. If having oral sex makes you feel bad. Or the partner feel bad. Then you shouldn’t do it in my opinion. If a couple somewhere decide to do it for fun, and they don’t feel any bad about it. I couldn’t see God punishing you for it. Now mind you there’s a difference between foolish and punishable. Foolish are the things (disobeying your parents, eating pork) that are most likely bad, and you most likely should do it most of the times (but what if your Dad tells you to kill someone? Or all you can afford is pig meat? Or more realistically, what if meat cleaning technology is much better today?). Punishable are the ones that are counted against you. It’s up to each person to decide which thing for them is punishable, which is foolish, and whether God allows you to be foolish.
And yeah… sorry… I talk a lot…
triprolo said,
November 29, 2008 at 10:07 pm
I see your point. I do agree that we are not right on everything. So I’m sure just as well as you are that when we get there, God gonna say that this or that was wrong or right and you made a big fuss out of nothing. However, I think you maybe thinking to deep to say that stealing is ok. But your point is right on.
While reading your statement, a verse came to mind. Matt 16:19 “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” NIV
I haven’t really done a exegesis on this verse so I’m speaking out of total ignorance. But does it mean what we bind or loosen corporately or by one’s self that God will do this. There are some things that I have bound but others have said it’s good to go. How does God handle that one.
Anyway, great post. I like the way you think.
Saph said,
November 30, 2008 at 8:16 am
Oh my God, I don’t think stealing is ok. Heheheh. I just meant that we have to be prepared to be surprised. We tend to think that we will only get the little things wrong, but I’m willing to bet that there will be some BIG surprises =)
Did you mean “lose”??? “loose on earth” sounds weird, it should be something like “let loose”, loose isn’t a verb… or is it…. hmmm.
That verse could be so many things. But the first that comes to my mind is sort of scary in a way. It’s saying that heaven to you will be like your actions on earth? “I’ll let you into heaven; But whatever you create while you live will be created in heaven, and whatever you let go in earth, will be let go in heaven”?
Heaven for me is such a deep and complex topic. First of all, I had to make myself think, “would I still believe in God if there was no heaven?” And it took some years until I realized yes. I want to be good, and do good, even if there’s no reward. There’s some shallowness in worshiping God while thinking there is a Heaven and a Hell. Worshiping out of fear of hell isn’t quite as strong as worshiping for the sake of worshiping. And doing good just so that you get into this exclusive heaven club isn’t any better, it’s greedy. Doesn’t mean I don’t believe in heaven, I do, it’s just realizing that you would still want to not sin even if there wasn’t one that makes your faith much stronger.
That verse could also mean, “I will give you the means to go to heaven; but whatever anchors you to earth will anchor you still while in heaven, and what you let go will also allow you freedom in heaven”.
I don’t know what I think about hell though. Could you feel happy, if you were in a room full of food, dancing and merry, while next door people were screaming being tortured and hungry? No matter what they did I would not be able to turn a blind eye that way. I also see hell as having no purpose. Everything God does has a purpose. Being tortured for 1 billion years, yes, eternity? What’s the point? Does God want us to worship him or else? I don’t think he’s that little. Does he get pleasure from seeing them in pain? I don’t think he’s that human. If innocent kids go to heaven, would I be doing good if I go around murdering all little kids before they turn evil? If that was so it would’ve been a good thing to do even if by extent I go to hell for murder wouldn’t it?
I had a dream once. This lady died, and her soul was lifted up. It was bright, and she had lived a bright life. But from within the cluster of light a few dark threads of dust fell and dissipated until it was nothing. Then the bright threads of light twirled and lifted higher, separating themselves. And then it was back in time, 20 years before, when the lady’s son died. The man was 42 years old, and died in an electric chair for murdering many people. And his soul went up, and it was dark, and ugly. And the threads twisted and went in all different directions, dissipating into nothing, but within the cluster were a few, only 4 or 5, of light. There was Steve the innocent child, Steve the young man in church, Steve the person who helped an old man push his car. And those threads went up and twirled around those of the old lady. Her threads beat like a heartbeat, she had her son she loved, and the one she remembered, the innocent 9 year old boy she loved, not the man he grew to be. And those threads climbed up into something unseen and left this world.
I can’t say everyone will go to heaven. Because it wouldn’t be fair. But I don’t know, even now as I am I can’t see myself being happy knowing my family are in hell being tortured. But who knows how we’ll be if we do get to heaven, or how it exists, until then all we have is faith that it will make sense =)
triprolo said,
November 30, 2008 at 5:54 pm
You said, “There’s some shallowness in worshiping God while thinking there is a Heaven and a Hell.” I agree to an extent. But I also find it hard to worship anything if there were not something in it for me. In that case, freedom of choice would not be needed. He could have just made us robotic. But He wanted to create us with the desire to worship Him and he had to make it desirable to worship Him. So we get blessings and His love and ultimately an inheritance of a kingdom such as His.
On the other thought about being happy in heaven while others are being forever tortured in hell, the truth about this I believe is we won’t know. The bible says He will wipe away all our tears when we get there. I’m sure you as well as me couldn’t contain myself if I had the knowledge of eternal damnation while I enjoyed eternal salvation. If God is all powerful, I believe he can erase all things from our thoughts to sustain us in ever joy in Heaven.
You lastly said that all we can do is count on faith to understand what heaven will be like. I think the bible does give some insight on what heaven will be like. But it also says no eye has seen nor ear heard what is awaiting us in heaven. I can’t wait.
Great discussion with ya Saph!
Saph said,
November 30, 2008 at 8:28 pm
It’s great to speak to someone who can politely disagree with you, specially in a blog =)
I understand your point on erasure. And though I wouldn’t like it, for all I know it could be. And yes the bible does give us insight into many things. I’m a kind of person who believes that God is goodness, so any good in the world is a reflection of God no matter where it is. So for me God guides us gives insight not only in the Bible, but in the beauty of the world, poetry, debating, and any other book out there that speaks any truth. I wouldn’t compare them to the bible, but I know it sounds sort of mean to other religions, but for me if their book has something good and beautiful, it’s just another glimpse at my God.
You said that you need something for you. I can’t deny that. Even by trying to be selfless I’m selfish. Because for example, for me, even if there is no heaven, I know I want to do goodness, and be good no matter what, and God for me is the only other being who I can say for sure also wants that. Anyone else could be lying. So what God gives me is companionship. So in the end I guess I do get something after all.
triprolo said,
December 2, 2008 at 10:27 pm
I’m a big fan of extra-biblical sources. I don’t solely lean on the bible. Just as the bible, doesn’t solely lean on itself. I’m studying the books of Chronicles right now and the writer got lot of his information from the books of Kings, Ezra and Nehemiah. At the time, there were no such thing as the bible. so the bible was written with other sources in mind. Crazy huh?
Plus I don’t believe the Spirit quit inspiring when John finished Revelation. I believe the Spirit inspires to this day. Meaning alot of books out there are inspired by God and line up with scripture. One of my favorites is My utmost for His Highest.
You said, “I can’t deny that. Even by trying to be selfless I’m selfish.” Nailed it. I could have said it better.